Curse

gotenks · Jan 22, 2006, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Everybody in guildwars including Anet seems to agree that skill > time spent in Guildwars. This is what Anet says about it

Quote:

Originally Posted by GW

Guild Wars, in contrast, is based around your skill as a player. Our maximum level is twenty and you hit that very quickly, after about 20-30 hours of play. ,We call that 'The Point of Ascension'. Almost all of the content in the game and in the future Chapters is only available to Ascended characters, which means we don't have to worry about providing different levels of content. All the good stuff will be available to everyone. It's not our intent to force people onto the levelling up treadmill, so the level cap in Guild Wars is almost meaningless.

Almost everyone who plays guildwars agrees with it. Some of us who dont also cant deny the logic behind it. It has served guildwars well. But what has been looked after in terms of the actual levels of characters in PvE, has been completely ignored in PvP. THERE IS NO CAP ON RANK. Rank as much as level of a character after a certain point just represents the time spent in the game doing PvP in Hero's ascent(Formerly tombs of primevial kings). Its in noway and indicator of the skill level of a player.

Its presence in the game was a very wise move in my opinion, as it helped people in forming groups, with players who atleast know what to do in each map leading up to HoH. But that purpose is acheived in getting to rank 3. I dont know why the rank still keeps on increasing after that. All it does is create egos in the game, people insulting others just because of their rank. To me thats no different than getting insulted from a LvL 60 player in WoW who spent hours and hours grinding to that level and now insults you, simply because you did not have time to grind that much? Rank is even worst than that in my opinion because atleat the person who is lvl 60 has an actual ingame advantage over you. In guildwars if someone is level 3 and understands all the maps is on a level playing field with anybody who is rank 9 or 12. Rank does not indicate a persons exeprience with builds for sure, cause builds come and go. Everyone plays one for the first time at one point or another.

My suggestion : Get a rank cap in place. Rank 3 or maybe 6 should be the maximum. I dont see anyone having a problem with that. Rank is a big problem at the moment and will continue to grow if not addressed now. In a game like guild wars there should only be ranked and non-ranked groups forming. Not rank 6+, rank 9+ and rank 12+. Guild ladders are already in place for showing your ability to work in a team. If people love any particular emote it should be availabe to them as a configurable option, not as a reward for GRINDING countless hours FARMING fame.

I know for sure that more than 90% of people do PvP just because they enjoy it. Rank is just a byproduct for them. Its the other 10% that cause all the problem. They gloat about their rank, making rank X+ only groups, creating this artficial need for new players to FARM fame and get to that rank. People who get to a certain rank this FARMING way mostly join onto this 10%, thereby creating a viscious cycle which plagues Guildwars PvP today. I ask those other remaining 90% to help me support this and make a difference now, before we become a minority. Dont make it so that a casual gamer who will buy Factions thinking he can enjoy some PvP, finds it impossible to do so.

~gotenks

Tuoba Hturt Eht · Jan 22, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by pintpointfive

Take away 15k armor... It just causes gloating, griefing, and harrassment... Doesn't make sense :/

You do not make much sense yourself.

In PvP, for the Heroes Ascent(former Tombs of the Primeval Kings), some teams require that a player is of rank 3, and prove it by using the /rank command, in order to be recruited into that particular team.

In PvE, you don't require players to have 15k armour in order to be recruit into a team for a mission.

Please be more explicit and elaborate more about your so called
- gloating
- griefing
- harrassment
regarding the 15k armour

Kai Nui · Jan 22, 2006, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Nah, why put a cap on Rank? I mean what the hell else are you going to do? Seems kind of ridiculous and anti-fun. I think they should have emotes where you can show them to your team mates. Like how much total faction, xp, skill points, etc... that you've earned.

Como Fort · Jan 22, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Everybody in guildwars including Anet seems to agree that skill > time spent in Guildwars. This is what Anet says about it

I disagree. There's rank 9 IWAY out there and MATH is rank 27? Show me some skill?

Ventius Hozza · Jan 22, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

I totally agree with gotenks

BakedMonkey · Jan 22, 2006, 01:57 PM // 13:57

well rank is causing a BIG problem for players like me..i tried getting into a group for tombs but they all ask for R3+ its just not fair i mean, i just got the game a month ago, and there was a jackass going "well u should of gotten your rank while everyone else did n00b." I think the rank system could be improved, its a vicious cycle like gotenks said, inorder to get rank, you need a group for tombs, in order to get into a group, u need rank..

well u may say go join a pvp guild, but lots of us "n00bs" just came from PvE and have grown attached to our guilds. I just wish that maybe ANet replaces rank with like some kind of prizes for instance if u make it to halls..u recieve this special item that probably has use for ur class etc. i hope Anet sees this thread cuz rank is killing a great game imo

Medion · Jan 22, 2006, 02:41 PM // 14:41

Totally agree with Gotenks (i do often), I now have 81 fame, have been in many maps (all?) and do know stuff about PvP. I am not saying that i am very good or that I can go make a team which will win HoH, I am telling that I know what to do.
Of this 81 fame, about 40 fame came from IWAY, the rest is from other groups. And to be honest, I have (again) given up to getting to rank 3. It just is too hard for new players, who do not have the luck of meeting good people who are willing to teach you somethings.
To me going to tombs all the time, is just nearly waste of time because finding a group takes nearly an hour if I don't IWAY or have guildies with me, and if that group fails the first round, it seperates directly afterwards again.

Also, if Anet doesn't do anything about it now, imagine the future of guildwars. Now the minimum is rank 3, next chapter it could be rank 6 and the chapter afterwards even higher. And if Anet doesn't do anything about it now, it will lose more people then it would when they take the rank system away. Cause to me, the only things I do is help people in PvE, a weekly guildbattle and the rest TA/CA, because I don't wanna go to tombs again and sit there for an hour to have about 10% chance to gain 1 fame. And I know to many others it is the same.

Argen · Jan 22, 2006, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Unluckily, I disagree with GoTenks... Rank needs to remain a reward for the PvP community. Until, and, yes, even after the IWAY build came out, Fame has continued to be a measure of a player's accumulated successful experience in one of the most difficult aspects of the game.

This has led to an unfortunate cycle of "R3 IWAY LF R3 Tainted Necro emote at Fighter" or such... It is quite possible to get into a good non-ranked group that is hungry for some fame, or even start one of your own. The Fame farming, often associated with IWAY is the problem. Now nearly anyone can look up an IWAY W/R, R/Me, Ne/Mo, Ne/Me and sit down and play game after game farming fame. This is where the problem lies. I have no problems with the IWAY build, but I do have a problem with all the people who crank out single point fame runs... this is little more than the "grind" associated with PvE. In most cases, I immediately subtract 2 from IWAY player's rank in their skill in other builds, but in IWAY builds they are rather competent. Perhaps it is more reasonable to show skill in a variety of classes and builds as a means to fame.

Unluckily, I do not have a solution to this problem except for the above. Do your best to Spam LFG in Tombs or start your own group. As for not being in a PvP oriented guild. That is your decision. I'm in a PvE oriented guild which does a tiny bit of organized PvP play. I made this decision, but I have used my friends list to find some folks I like to play PvP or runs matches with.

Another possibility is to pay 1k per point of Fame or so, and have somebody farm it for you... not the best solution... but its there.

Medion · Jan 22, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Unluckily, I disagree with GoTenks... Rank needs to remain a reward for the PvP community. Until, and, yes, even after the IWAY build came out, Fame has continued to be a measure of a player's accumulated successful experience in one of the most difficult aspects of the game.

I understand that rank 9 people won't want to fight along with me, but I disagree with the fact that a new person can't get into any group at all, sometimes IWAY, but if you read these kind of forums it's like having played IWAY makes you even lower!
So what should the new guy do? Just accept it and stop play PvP? I am to the point of thinking that that is the best solution for me.

Quote:

"well u should of gotten your rank while everyone else did n00b."

One of the best examples of what is meant IMO. In earlier days, it was very rare to see someone ask for rank, nowadays, everyone asks for rank. So in the past it wasn't difficult to find a little good group, which could get some rounds, but now, all that is left are groups that don't pas the ghosts or the first round.

And about that IWAY people are worse players then people who use other builds is just ridiculous. Do you think, that every rank 6-9 came there with IWAY or balanced? I remember things like Spirit Spam and Smiting. Do you think that that takes skill?
But somehow they became good, and so will IWAY players, and so will non-rank players, if you give them a chance, but is that chance given? NO!
Yes, there may be 2 or 3 people who say that rank doesn't matter for them, but those 2/3 people don't really matter, cause the chance of someone meeting them is VERY small.

=HT=Ingram · Jan 22, 2006, 04:10 PM // 16:10

I never cared either way. people spamming LFG AM Rank whatever just clue me in that I don't want them. cause they will be mostly annoying. there are a few exceptions to this, but generally speaking (Especially when testing new party builds about) those people will be one of the first to drop you in the middle of the game because they feel they are better then everyone else and want to purposely screw you in the process. Thus those little messages I see SPAMED Constintly over and over again all the time has served us well in avoiding the jerks in our GW community. Yes I understand the want for a rank 3 or better... it just goes to prove you know what is going on. But requiring it all the time. well.. with the new training system requirements in battle isles. I think that's prove pretty well right there... after all I have seen some rank 6+ people getting torn to shreds in the Zaishen Elite challenge, which is required to be beaten to get to the Heroes Ascent and access to hall of heroes. Sure right now everyone has access to it. but at launch you will have to go through all the challenges to get there. So there is some proof of ability right there... Least this time its not an easy 1v1NPC battle that determines you can go to the Elite PvP area. You got to EARN your way there by fighting... That's WONDERFUL!

Hell Marauder · Jan 22, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Needing a rank to enjoy successful organized pvp and needing to succeed in organized pvp to get fame/rank creates a vicious cycle. Just allow factions to be converted to fame (1000 to 1 maybe?), then you can create a nick to this evil cycle. Afterall, random pvp is pvp too, why discriminate?

Argen · Jan 23, 2006, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medion

I understand that rank 9 people won't want to fight along with me, but I disagree with the fact that a new person can't get into any group at all, sometimes IWAY, but if you read these kind of forums it's like having played IWAY makes you even lower!
So what should the new guy do? Just accept it and stop play PvP? I am to the point of thinking that that is the best solution for me.

Well, having played IWAY when it was the L33T thing to do and now and again since it has become a bit less uber L33T doesn't make me a lower caliber player. I play an Orders Necro in IWAY, but will almost certainly change characters, I use all my slots for PvE, to fit into a group. Just play around there are many successful, or semi-successful group builds. Play around in the groups that aren't asking for a rank. You could even try setting up your own PuG (Pick-Up Group). Sometimes, you can ask the leader to let you in, if you know the build... Just tell them you are willing to listen and do everything you can. Sometimes this doesn't. Another thing to do is ask around here if someone will show you the ropes for PvP and this gets you in contact with some new people to give you a helping hand and lend one back.

I don't think you should stop playing PvP. I have felt that way before, but I realize that if I do that I will not be able to enjoy some of the game's content. Plus if I find that the people I'm playing with in PvP are fun, I add them to my list to contact later. That way you start to get a network of people who you enjoy to PvP with.

I apologize for reiterating the same points, but I think they are really important. Think about how many times some folks have to LFG at Thunderhead. Than they get a good group and get going with no problems. PvP is a bit more intimidating, but is generally the same principle. Sometimes you have to look around a bit to find a good group to get started with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinpointfive

So... Get in a guild. Become a top 5 or top 10 guild... You shouldn't have trouble getting into a HA group then.

Though a good idea, have you tried getting a guild from 1000, N/A to the top 100 even. This is a long and quite grand project. It is not feasible for most casual players. Its a good goal but not something you do overnight. In regards to this, if you are currently in a guild that focuses on PvE and want to move your focus to PvP, and the members whom's company you enjoy to your Friend's List and go hunt down a PvP guild that can get you started and help you out.

Elrond Afil · Jan 23, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

I don't agree, rank is what sorts the men from the children..

monk muffle · Jan 23, 2006, 01:29 AM // 01:29

i totally agreeits hard to find a team if im not r6 if you have rank 2 and got it from the same build your just as good as a r12 with the same build as you i even know this i was with an unranked iway and beat a r6 iway

Argen · Jan 23, 2006, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elrond Afil

I don't agree, rank is what sorts the men from the children..

God forbid if a woman would get a rank, would she immediately become a man... if so we must not allow women to play, for our survival as a species becomes in doubt.

In a few ways Elrond, I disagree with you. Things that scare me about rank... someone who has a tendency to annoy me greatly, recently purchased several hundred k off of EBay. He than proceeded to purchase a crystalline sword. No worries, I thought. Than he started talking to me about PvP, and I was having a problem cause all the groups in Tombs seemed to be LF Rank 9+... FTW. So he has gone out and purchased more platinum off of EBay and is now paying someone to farm him Fame and rank... /sigh
Somehow I don't believe this is your attention of creating men from children, but perhaps it is.

Next is something that I find a bit annoying, but don't have a way to really get over it. I have recently had the chance to join several different semi-organized team; sometimes IWAY, Illusionary Weaponry, so on and so forth groups. These groups said right from the outset not to leave if we hit a better team, as they intended to farm fame. I have no qualms with a PuG getting ran over by the rank 4 guild; but these groups exist to farm off one or two wins against PuGs or other weak teams than do it again... and again... ad infinitum. This again does not seem to be the idea of Fame.

This form of fame farming has apparently become necessary because it seems very hard to find a group that will except lower ranked players. I do not think that these players benefit from this... How is a rank 3 IWAY group any different than a rank 0 IWAY? They just have been through 200 battles...

Quote:

Originally Posted by monk muffle

i totally agreeits hard to find a team if im not r6 if you have rank 2 and got it from the same build your just as good as a r12 with the same build as you i even know this i was with an unranked iway and beat a r6 iway

My personal favorite is the Orders Necro, which I play from time to time in IWAY groups. I try to avoid getting stuck in spirits, set back spam orders, pop a healing spell, and towards the end of the battle pop a couple of healing spells. I don't mean to be rude... but how does this require a rank 3 player? So an orders necro who has gone through 180 successful battles is somehow better than one who has done 98 or 179, or honestly about 3?

Is this superiority in skill or the superiority in attention span and patience?

Lexar · Jan 23, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

The point Gotenks makes is not wether or not rank indicates how good a player is or not, but that it goes against what guildwars stands for, and that is to reward skill, not time spent. If you were a very mediocre to bad player back in september and you kept playing tombs all the time up untill now, and didn't actually improve, chances are you'd still have a high rank, but it would have nothing to do with skill.

Of course time spent does bring some level of skill, but it only goes so far. Once you learned the skills and builds, and the maps, and all there is to know, it stops and time spent no longer equals your skill. Which is why i agree that it should stop somewhere. And rank 12 is just rediculous. I'm thinking that players who are leaning towards rank 6, say a high rank 4 or rank 5 player knows the ropes. Typically they'd know the skills, maps builds etc and all there is to know, and that's where I think the rank cap should be.

Also what fun would it be if rank was capped? Well first and foremost this is a game, if you don't play it for the fun of beating an other team, but for the fun of having a high rank, chances are you're not really enjoying the game like other people are.

gotenks · Jan 23, 2006, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Yes, it is unfair to people with a very high rank, if a rank cap was introduced. They have spent a lot of time acheiving it, and must be proud of their accomplishment. But a true PvPer would have no problems with a change that would help the game that they love so much. A true PvPer would feel good if his/her guild ranks high on the guild ladder, its a team game after all, isnt it? Guild rank indicates your skill, your accomplishment in this game, if you PvP more than your personal rank. People who PvP just for increasing their personal rank are not the kind of people who improve this game.

I made this post because I seriously believe that rank problem would adversly affect the future of this game. It is hard for a new player to find decent groups/guilds at this time. Its going to be down right impossible if the average rank of the PvP population reaches the next emote (rank 6? 9?) by the time faction comes out.

Tombs is the only place where you get fame, and rightly so. Its a unique challenge and one that has a very visible reward. You get favor for your region. All new players notice the global messages when they start playing, they even show up in pre-searing. Winning HoH is therefore one of the main objectives in this game for every player. Same goes for exepensive armor and weapons. Anet made many changes in the games economy like price resets, merging of trader pools, green weapons etc. It pissed of many Hoarders/rich players in the game. But overall it made the game better for an average player. A similar situation exists in the PvP scene now. Something has to be done to make the gaming experience of a casual player enjoyable, without sacrificing the skill requirement for PvP. Rank cap is an obvious choice, I think.

anonymous · Jan 23, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Well how you said that GUILD WARS is about skill>time. Why yes it is. Its the players that made the rank requirement. Guild Wars doesnt tell us to not let people into are group that are under rank 3. Rank is an ok determination of skill, although not the best. Yes there are people under rank 3 but you have a 1-50 chance of finding that good player. If you search for players of a certain rank, you at least know that they have some knowledge of tombs.

Now you talk about how the higher players dont let new players in. Well I would much rather take a good player that know what they are doing than i would take a new player and teach that player how to play.

Yes there are rank reqs out there, but it isnt impossible to find a group without req. Now I used to not have a rank req to groups I make, but I wanted to see if i would do better with r3+. And yes I did, so now my groups are r3+. The reason for that is because they have spent more time in tombs than the rankless players. I dont want to let new players into my group to give them a shot at the game. I want to let decent players in and actually get past the first round. I want to spend more time playing the game instead of telling new players how to play the game. Putting a rank cap would make it better for new players and guilds and worse for older players that make pugs. Guilds should have no problems steamrolling pugs of new players and would end tombs for anyone without a pvp guild.

gotenks · Jan 23, 2006, 03:56 AM // 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymous

Well how you said that GUILD WARS is about skill>time. Why yes it is. Its the players that made the rank requirement. Guild Wars doesnt tell us to not let people into are group that are under rank 3. Rank is an ok determination of skill, although not the best. Yes there are people under rank 3 but you have a 1-50 chance of finding that good player. If you search for players of a certain rank, you at least know that they have some knowledge of tombs.

Now you talk about how the higher players dont let new players in. Well I would much rather take a good player that know what they are doing than i would take a new player and teach that player how to play.

Yes there are rank reqs out there, but it isnt impossible to find a group without req. Now I used to not have a rank req to groups I make, but I wanted to see if i would do better with r3+. And yes I did, so now my groups are r3+. The reason for that is because they have spent more time in tombs than the rankless players. I dont want to let new players into my group to give them a shot at the game. I want to let decent players in and actually get past the first round. I want to spend more time playing the game instead of telling new players how to play the game. Putting a rank cap would make it better for new players and guilds and worse for older players that make pugs. Guilds should have no problems steamrolling pugs of new players and would end tombs for anyone without a pvp guild.

So you agree with me, well partly atleast. I said have a rank cap. Make it so that after getting say 300 fame, you can emote and are thus ranked. You can choose your favourite emote too if you want. 300 fame is enuf to gaurantee that your team will consist of players who know what they are doing, isnt it? I didnt quite understand the logic of your sentance in bold though.

Two April Mornings · Jan 23, 2006, 04:03 AM // 04:03

/agree
and make every battle a lwoer amount of fame so that the people with high ranks feel special.